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Inside Source Reveal the Truth About Xbox 360 "Red Ring of Death" Failures
Since it's launch in Fall of 2005 Xbox 360 systems all over the world have had major hardware failure problems resulting in millions of costumers having to mail their Xbox back to Microsoft. No one really knows what has been causing these problems since the official lines never divulged the specific problems or rates of failure. All a person has to do is to press the power button on their Xbox 360 and there is a chance that it will just up and fail to boot up and shine the "Red Rings of Death". Microsoft decided to extend the warrantee for the Xbox 360 but the cloud of fear and uncertainly still hang around the game system.
This past week I met and interviewed an individual who has worked on the Xbox 360 project for many years and they had some things that they wanted to get out into the public. I have the fullest confidence in the integrity of this confidential source. While respecting and protecting their rights we were able to have an in-depth interview of working in the Xbox project and just how things progressed to this point. Just keep in mind that a while back I broke the story that Bungie was leaving Microsoft and had all the details a full week before the official PR announcement Once again I have a confidential source from inside Redmond and I't all checks out to me.
Update : The interview was done via email.
Now on to the interview:
Q: So what do you think the real failure rate of the Xbox 360 is? Some have estimated it as high as 30%. I got my Xbox in early 2007 and so far so good but what do you think the chance is that it's going to die on me one day.
It's around 30%, and all will probably fail early. This quarter they are expecting 1 M failures, most of those Xenons. Some of those are repeat failures. Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters. That means it's not a fault tolerant design. So a good unit may last a couple of years, while a bad unit can fail in hours. I have a launch unit and have not had a single problem with it. And it's used a lot. But I don't know anyone else with a 360 that hasn't broken, except you now. There's no way to tell when yours might die. But the cooler you can keep it, the longer it will probably last. So stand it up, keep it in free air, etc. :Note : Xenon was the code name for the first Xbox 360 mother board.
Q: Of all five videogame systems on the market now (PS3, PSP, PS2, DS, Wii and 360)only the Xbox 360 has had such major hardware failure problems. Microsoft being the only company based in the US making a videogame system. What part of Microsoft's way of doing things do you think caused this situation to happen.
First, MS has under resourced that product unit in all engineering areas since the very beginning. Especially in engineering support functions like test, quality, manufacturing, and supplier management. There just weren't enough people to do the job that needed to be done. The leadership in many of those areas was also lopsided in essential skills and experience. But I hear they are really trying to staff up now based on what has happened, and how cheap staff is compared to a couple of billion in cost of quality.
Second, MS was so focused on beating Sony this cycle that the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws. The design qual testing was insufficient and incomplete when the product was released to production. The manufacturing test equipment had major gaps in test coverage and wasn't reliable or repeatable. Manufacturing processes at eall levels of suppliers were immature and not in control. Initial end to end yields were in the mid 30%. Low yields always indicate serious design and manufacturing defects. Management chose to continue to ship anyways, and keep the lines running while trying to solve problems and bring the yields up. Whenever something failed and there was a question about whether the test result was false, they would remove that test, retest and ship, or see if the unit would boot a game and run briefly and then ship. 360 is too complex of a machine to get away with that.
In the end I think it was fear of failure, ambition to beat Sony, and the arrogance that they could figure anything out, that led to the decision to keep shipping. That management team had made some pretty bad decisions in the past and had never had to pay a proportional consequence. I'm sure they thought that somehow they would figure it out and everything would end up ok. Plus, they tend to make big decisions like that in terms of dollars. They would rationalize that if the first few million boxes had a high failure rate, a few 10's of millions of dollars would cover it. And contrasting that cost with a big lead on Sony, would pay it in a heartbeat. They weren't even thinking about Nintendo.
Compare that to Sony, who delayed their launch, even though they were behind, when their box wasn't ready.
Q: In your opinion what do you think the main cause of the Red Ring of Death failures have been?
RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.
There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.
Q: Does some games more than others cause hardware failure. Gears of War and Dead Rising were thought to be system killers when they came out.
Of course. Infant mortality, which is a weakened mechanical "thing" like a solder joint with a void in it, are exercised to failure by cyclic stress. The number of cycles and the amplitude of temperature change from low to high determine how quickly it will fail. Certain games will consume more bandwidth on the GPU, which has the most substandard thermal solution on the mother board, making it a lot hotter, warping the mobo and flexing the solder joints. Weak joints fail quickly. The better the game, the more often it will be played, again accelerating failures.
Q: Let's go over some of the rumored reasons RROD. Could you tell how close each theory is?
Over heating CPU/GPU due to the lead free solder?
They don't overheat due to PB Free. They over heat due to too much power dissipated in too small of an area, w/o a sufficient thermal management design to take the heat away from the junction of the transistors on the chips, the packages themselves, and the mobo. And the over heating is on the GPU. When the CPU heatsink is applied right, it does not over heat.
Defective parts due to overseas subcontractors?
Some defective parts, like BGAs where the solder balls are not of sufficient and uniform size, so they don't solder down evenly, or the substrate is warped, causing some joints to have insufficient solder. Bad chips from marginal or under tested wafers. Others are deficient processes, like misaligning the solder paste to the circuit board, or same on the parts, or not having the thermal profile right in the reflow oven during soldering. Manufacturers new to PB free tend to err on the low temp side thinking they are saving the parts reliability wise from a large thermal load. What they are really doing is not reflowing the PB free solder enough to make a good joint. PB free solder is non eutectic, which means the different metals in the solder alloy melt at different temperatures, unlike leaded solder where everything melts at the same temperature. If you under heat it, it won't bond well to the board or parts, won't form a good joint, leaving voids and other defects in the joints that lead to early failure under normal circumstances. But when you add the extraordinary heat and mother board warpage that goes with it, well you get a catastrophic failure rate like we've all seen on 360.
Defective or insufficient heat sinks?
A heat sink like the one they eventually put on the GPU would have helped a lot, since it stops the GPU heat from warping the mobo and breaking the solder joints. The CPU heatsink was fine. I've heard the memory was running hot too, and contributing to these failures. Not sure if they were heated by contact with the GPU heatsink, proximity on the mother board, or both. But with the new GPU heatsink the failure rate probably would have still been double digits overall. Way too high still.
Corrupt BIOS or OS bricking the system?
Maybe. But haven't heard of this outside of the periodic dash updates bricking boxes.
Is humidity a factor? Are Xbox 360s in Florida just as likely as a 360 in Seattle?
Humidity is a co-factor with temperature for many failure modes. The hotter the room ambient conditions, the more likely a 360 is to fail, all else being equal. Same for humidity.
Is keeping the 360 horizontal more safe than keeping it vertical?
I don't think so. Vertical exposes more surface area and volume to heat exchange with cooler room air. And I think opens more vent holes. Just don't let it fall over.
System wide design problems due to a production schedule that shipped a full year before the competition's systems?
Yes. It just wasn't mature enough. Too many design defects, lack of design margins, immature test processes and equipment, insufficient PB free manufacturing expertise at partner manufacturers who made the mother board.
Or is there no one specific problem but a bunch of possible problem for each console?
Yes. See above.
Q: How have IBM and ATI dealt with the Xbox 360 problems?
Sorry, I don't know. But they were contracted to design and help launch the chips. After that, MS owned the design and tooling. So they didn't have to worry about it. Although I'm sure they were pulled in.
Q: Just what is up with the RROD "Towel Trick" fix?
My best guess is that it somewhat reflows the solder joints on the GPU while it's under a high compressive load from the heatsink clip, causing any open solder joints to make contact again. I don't think it's going to fully reflow them because 1) PB free solder melts above 300 degrees C, and if that happened the GPU would be pulled flat to the mother board with a big puddle of solder under it shorting everything out.
Q: One of the problems that I have run into my 360 is that the disk tray will fail to eject and not let me swap disks. Have any ideas?
LOL. Reboot and try it again! Sorry, couldn't help myself. You didn't give me enough info. How often does it happen? Notice any conditions that tend to make it happen more repeatably (after long play, unit standing up, right after a previous eject, etc.)? Can you recover and get the tray open at some other time after it fails? What did you have to do? It might be as simple as a bad connection somewhere in the circuit for the eject button. Usually I'd recommend percussive maintenance (hit it) but that would probably damage the disc and could damage the console. So don't. Maybe the disc is jammed in there. Does the tray try to come out and then stop? Maybe there is a misalignment with the box case. See if you can find a place where it might be catching. If you can't find the problem, bring it with you when we meet and I'll look at it.
Q: What do you think of the Karla Starr of the Seattle Weekly's article about video game hardware testing?
I read that when it came out. It's pretty accurate. I've been to VMC a few times where that testing is done. It's kinda brute force last stage game qual testing, after a lot of other testing has been done at the developer and MS. Funny, but you can only automate so much. And then you need to have people touch it and use it to find the unlikely bugs.
Q: How much more reliable are the current generation of Xbox 360 than the previous designs? Original Xenon, Zypher and Falcon.
I've heard that the failure rates for the current design is sub 10%. Much much better, but still too high imoh. And those designs haven't seen much life yet, so no one knows if that failure rate will hold.
Q: Do you think that the "Falcon" Xbox 360 design is the final Xbox 360 hardware iteration or will they come out with a redesigned Xbox 360?
They will come out with new hardware at least once a year until they retire this design. That's the console financial model. Keep the features and functionality the same, reduce cost and price, and improve quality if needed. The 360 roadmap always called for SI die shrink and integration, since that's where most of the cost is. Right now they are working to get the GPU and CPU on the same BGA package for the next mobo. Could lower cost, heat, number of heat sinks, mother board size (maybe squeeze the PS inside too), etc. Too bad that they screwed up and forgot to retain the JTAG IEEE 1149 test functionality, at least what little they had. Now it will be almost impossible for them to tell if that chip is bad if the unit won't boot in the factory. So they will have to trouble shoot by replacing the most expensive part in the system blindly. They keep repeating bad decisions, and everyone is afraid to push issues considered to be bad news.
Q: Do you think that third party fans like the Nyko Intercooler will make things worse? Are they snake oil? I personally have plastic Tiki figures around my Xbox to ward off any evil spirits and so far they have done better in protecting than some of the fan coolers that you see at Gamestop.
I don't know, I'd have to test them. But I'll give you some thoughts. In order for those fans to do any good, they would have to increase the volume of air coming through the box w/o adding heat. I think those things are powered through the USB hub, which is specced at 5 volts, 1/2 an amp. So very little heat added. But the piggybacked fan would have to run at a higher volume that the box fan in order to unload it and make it spin faster, pulling more air over the heatsinks. Would be an easy test to run. Just tape a dry cleaning bag to the back with and w/o the extra fan and time how long to fill. Or if you have access to one, an anemometer is a test instrument that measures airflow and would give a more accurate reading.
Note : the Nyko Intercoolers draws power from the 360 power-source and it looks like surefire way to potentially make things worse.
Q: How many times does an Xbox 360 unit have to be sent in and repaired before they will replace it with a completely new unit?
That's not how it works. You send in a broken box, you get back a working box (hopefully). So there is a rotating stock of the original units that get repaired and returned to service. Plus, they keep finding these cashes of launch units here and there and using them too. Didn't you hear during the holidays that bundles were found with units made in 06? Those were pulled back from the retail channel last spring when the new heatsink was done, and had the new heatsink placed on them and then put into the shipping flow like any other box.
Back to the rotating inventory of launch units. You risk getting one of those back until the last one is out of the system. I imagine the next big outrage will be when some of the folks who waited till Falcon to buy a console for reliability reasons, and has to send it in for service, gets a Xenon back! Even when all of the Xenons are gone, you will likely get a newer gen repaired one back rather than new. Unless the fail rate gets so low there are none available. I'm holding my breath...
Q: How could the wireless racing wheel have overheating problems with the AC adapter? I can't think of any external video game accessory that had similar problems.
I don't know. I heard that one was an over reaction, and no test could have found it. That happens sometimes. A supplier changes something, or it happens so rarely that it can't be seen in any reasonable or even possible sample size. Like Xbox 1's catching on fire. That happened 25 times out of 25 million units. How can you test for that unless you know exactly what causes it? If you know, you design it out.
Q: The original Xbox had a recall of some of the power supply cords. Did that affect the design of the 360?
Safety became a paramount concern. We realized that we could meet all regulations and still have problems. So extra effort was made to have zero safety defects. See the comment about 25 fires from this, above.
Q: There has seemed to be an executive exodus from the top of the Xbox project. Seamus Blackley, Peter Moore, James Allard. Do you think that there something that has been causing the "fathers of Xbox" to want to move on?
Seamus left a long time ago, and I think there was some conflict so that it wasn't entirely voluntary. J Allard left to go do Zune (along with Greg Gibson), and is a big part of the team who owns the strategic vision of MS E&D under Robbie Bach. Peter was a surprise. He sure left in a hurry, and not the way top people usually go, which is usually with a longer notice. And right after the warranty extension announcement. I don't know if they are related, but it looks like they could be in some way. I noticed you didn't mention Ed Fries, who left in 04. I heard he landed at Sony, but can't verify. But I don't see the senior team wanting to move or moving. Very few people who leave do so voluntarily. Note: I did forget to mention Ed Fries.
Q: Do you see much of a long term future for Microsoft?s Entertainment & Devices Division? I saw that they just got a new campus and troubled projects rarely get new expensive buildings. Do you see that division ever turning a profit? So what do you think their overall hardware strategy is? Do you think that they will still be selling videogame systems and music players in five years?
Xbox's mission statement is to preserve the Windows monopoly and extend it into the living room, as a media extender for a Media Center PC, along with a host of other MS and other company's hardware devices that fit into a digital entertainment lifestyle. MS has the bucks to keep losing money on Xbox for a long time, maybe forever. They've already lost around 6 billion dollars. How are they ever going to make that back on Xbox? They can't. Maybe they don't think they have to. That amount might be just 1 or 2 quarters of profit for an integrated hw/sw portfolio, with windows, PC Hardware, Xbox, Zune, TV, Movies, ads, etc., all providing some revenue stream to MS. You should check out their jobs site sometime. You can learn a lot about what they are doing. And their patent applications. They have a team working on making PCs now. That voice activated thing they did for Ford? Where do you think you will see that next? MS devices and sw is my guess.
That new H&E campus says that MS is getting into consumer electronics in a big way, and you can bet they are working to refine a strategy of integrating their offerings into a digital lifestyle universe, with most everything covered that we could want to stay productive, connected and entertained. Not piece meal, like some companies seem to be approaching electronics. Look at Apple. They are doing great, keep rolling out innovative stuff, but what's their vision and strategy to implement? What's their roadmap and timeline? How does it all go together, work together? I can't tell from what they say or do. But I can see what MS is trying to do. They are just getting started I think. So yes, they will still be doing this in 5 years. But they really need to mature their business and change some blood in there. Hire some key people who have experience running large hardware companies who can put the right organization, process and infrastructure in place. If they don't, they may continue to have quality and operational issues that will really dampen their progress. And with all of the external challenges in consumer markets, even MS can't afford to be it's own enemy for too much longer.
Q: Do you think that there is going to be a third generation Xbox?
I understand they are working on it right now. But don't look for it any time soon. It's years away. News flash: Sony and Nintendo are working on their next boxes in some way too.
Q: So do you play games?
Just a little. I lack the hardware abstraction layer in my brain that allows me to translate body motion into controller commands. If I am playing a racing game and I want to turn right I tend to turn the controller to the right. Just like the Wii. Funny thing. In the middle of '03 I tried to convince our director of "innovation" that we needed to do motion control, simple and intuitive controllers, and focus on family oriented and just plain fun content. Well before the Wii came out. He completely disregarded it. Oh well. I bet they wish they had that decision back as a do over.
Jake at January 19, 2008 
Games
Comments
After i read the thing about the Wii, where he allegedly thought of it first, i totally disregarded this whole article. Sorry.
Posted by: Arty at January 19, 2008 4:56 PM
Nice interview, I wish he would have gone a bit more into the HDMI issue, about how HDMI less consoles get sent in, and to my knowlegde almost always a HDMI less 360 is sent back. And then they refit your old 360 with a HDMI port and send it back!
Posted by: Mehar at January 19, 2008 5:51 PM
Nice interview, I wish he would have gone a bit more into the HDMI issue, about how HDMI less consoles get sent in, and to my knowlegde almost always a HDMI less 360 is sent back. And then they refit your old 360 with a HDMI port and send it back!
Posted by: Mehar at January 19, 2008 5:52 PM
Very interesting. I've had zero problems with my 360 and I got it in late January '06. 'Course I was forced to buy a core version, which ended up costing maybe $50-75 more than the Premium after buying all the premium's accessories. However, I can't help but wonder if my good fortune has been a result of mine being a core model or if its just an odd coincidence. Whatever the case, every single one of my friends from school and a good portion of my friend list has gotten the RROD or disk tray problems at some point (even multiple times for some unlucky souls), so I can't help but feel blessed. I play mine for massively extended periods of time too (e.g. when I got Oblivion I refused to turn my 360 off, leaving it on for 3 days or more).
Posted by: Carl at January 19, 2008 8:00 PM
Arty The idea of simple motion controls in videogames were around long before the Wii. There are over a dozen SIGGRAPH papers and presentations long before the latest Nintendo system came out.
Posted by: Jake of 8bitjoystick.com at January 19, 2008 8:38 PM
I have a couple of friends who own 360s and they have, combined, gone through maybe 4 360s. They were very well ventilated but it must have been defective parts, or just a combination of any of the possibilities listed in the interview. I myself own a laucnh PS3 and has been running since August '07, either folding or gaming of course. At least the new "Falcon" 360s are around 10% so its a big improvement.
Posted by: numbo at January 19, 2008 8:52 PM
Microsoft screws consumers for profit. Film at 11.
Posted by: Tonkarz at January 19, 2008 10:52 PM
But Tonkarz, the Xbox and Zune division of Microsoft is a massive money sinkhole. They have spent over six billion on the Xbox project since 1999. My source's theory is that it is a defensive product against other companies from being in a position of effectively fighting Windows but if any company can afford to spend six billion on Xbox it's Microsoft.
Posted by: Jake of 8bitjoystick.com at January 19, 2008 11:35 PM
My launch console just caught the RRoD fever last week. It was doing so well, but I guess if it was going to happen, I'd rather have it happen while it's covered under the extended warranty.
God knows what people are going to do at the end of this year when the RRoD warranty starts to expire for all of the early adopters.
And since one dead console isn't bad enough, my second 360, a refurbished Core that I bought about a month ago, is now having disc drive problems; unreadable disc errors, mistaking games for DVD movies, etc. So I have to send them both in for repairs, and I'm hoping I at least get my original 'box back to me.
I've never treated any of my consoles with such delicate care as I have with my 360s. It's a shame that they're so damn fragile.
Posted by: Dark at January 19, 2008 11:59 PM
Hm, sounds reliable, I recently sent in my console for repair they recieved it Thursday, I was wondering, I understand they fix and cycle the consoles but does the repair center constantly improve repair techniques to help reduce the occurance of repeat failures?
Posted by: Jeffrey at January 20, 2008 12:20 AM
he didnt say he thought of it first dipshit.
Posted by: gmy at January 20, 2008 12:22 AM
yeah.. let's not have any tardboys defending the 360's reliability.. we all know it's crappy hardware but great at gaming when it works.
Posted by: facts please at January 20, 2008 12:29 AM
if the RROD was a known problem at launch then Microsoft can never be trusted
Posted by: Mike Olbinski at January 20, 2008 12:30 AM
"I have the fullest confined in the integrity of my confidential source."
What does that mean?
Posted by: Stubby at January 20, 2008 12:39 AM
No one talks like that
Posted by: Chincey at January 20, 2008 12:56 AM
Hey Arty, Like jake stated, The Wii idea was not new, But please disregard everything you have not researched the history of....
The genius is that they had the guts to do it and put it on the market.
Posted by: isocar at January 20, 2008 1:00 AM
"After i read the thing about the Wii, where he allegedly thought of it first, i totally disregarded this whole article. Sorry."
LOL, that was a bit dickish, but he could have well had the idea. Regardless of that statement, this is a very good article and it sounds like it accurately depicts what goes on inside Microsoft. I also like how he included the whole Microsoft taking over everything comment, I could certainly see that happening. Don't worry guys - Microsoft isn't a monopoly.
Posted by: Trypt at January 20, 2008 1:06 AM
"I have the fullest confined in the integrity of my confidential source."
What does that mean?
It means that I know who my source is at Microsoft and I trust them but I am not going to tell you or anyone else who they are.
If you have any questions for them just post some comments and I'll run them by my source.
Posted by: Jake of 8bitjoystick.com at January 20, 2008 1:23 AM
I bought an XBox 360 Premium here in Australia back in May 2006. The only time I ever experienced a RROD was when I hadn't plugged in the (component) A/V cable. However I have had several lockups occur, particularly on hot days. But after I did some rearranging of my entertainment system and gave the 360 some more space the problem stopped. Now it will keep on rocking even on days when the mercury hits 40 degrees Celsius. Must just be lucky I guess, though I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Posted by: Andrea at January 20, 2008 1:31 AM
Does anyone know if warranties get extended for replacement units? What happens if you get sent a replacement system that happens to have a different hardware problem (unrelated to the RRoD issue) and it is outside of the one year warranty period (for non-RRoD issues)?
Posted by: Dumbledouche at January 20, 2008 2:55 AM
Does anyone know if warranties get extended for replacement units? What happens if you get sent a replacement system that happens to have a different hardware problem (unrelated to the RRoD issue) and it is outside of the one year warranty period (for non-RRoD issues)?
Posted by: Dumbledouche at January 20, 2008 2:56 AM
Hey Jake - Great info, Thanks a lot. I have a question for your guy. I bought the premium console in March '06 and got the RROD in December '07. The console MS mailed back to me was built 12/11/07, however, it doesn't have the HDMI port. If all of the consoles currently built have an HDMI port why doesn't mine?
Posted by: Ross at January 20, 2008 3:04 AM
When will Service Pack 1 for Xbox be released? it's a joke xD...
Posted by: Albert at January 20, 2008 3:08 AM
I sent in an Jan06 Premium on Dec 14th with Samsung DVD drive. A month later I got back a premium with a new BenQ drive, new falcon mainboard, new case, in fact everything was new but the case had my serial on it.
Oh and guess what, there was still no HDMI. In fact I've never heard of HDMI being added when it wasn't present before.
Overall I'm happy with the repair centre (UK).
*Goes Back To Mass Effect*
Posted by: Thug4L1f3 at January 20, 2008 3:09 AM
I have a contact who works at Celestica in Prague (CZ), the whole plant's current purpose is to repair faulty Xbox 360's.
They are currently at 300% capacity (meaning, in any timeframe there are 3x more coming in, than they can get out the door).
He also mentioned that about 30% of the consoles are coming direct from the manufacturing plants in Asia, where there are large numbers of defects straight from the manufacturing lines. (but hey, at least they are catching them now...).
Overall, it seems like a process totally out of control. 10% failure rate for the redesigned Falcon is also pretty shocking (lets imagine for a moment, if this were Sony with 10% failure rate, let alone a 30-40% rate, the fanboys would be in overdrive)
Posted by: Mark at January 20, 2008 3:52 AM
Andrea, don't tempt fate. You're pretty much asking to have your console die.
Posted by: loinbread at January 20, 2008 4:04 AM
What about the rumors of the Linux embedded OS?
Posted by: Linux at January 20, 2008 4:44 AM
Do you think this subject is popular, Jake? :)
I think the appeal lies in the fact that more than enough people have been affected by this problem and that there's never been an adequate explanation given by MS. Also, MS' irritating habit of shipping sub-standard replacement units is causing more problems than it resolves.
Strangely, the ultra-defensive fanboys are diminishing in numbers... maybe they've all got the RROD?
Posted by: HellblazerUSA at January 20, 2008 5:38 AM
Really great interview, a real insight into the internals of MS. Thanks. It's a pity most people who have read it and commented so far are idiots.
Posted by: Max Howell at January 20, 2008 6:03 AM
Just a note to this article, I have had my 360 since Jan. 2007 and it has yet to fail on me. **Knocks on wood** I have used it a lot too!
Posted by: CurtisV at January 20, 2008 7:21 AM
if people took the necessary breaks, and let the system cool down, there'd be none of this bullshit rrod problem...
it's the likes of gamers spending 50 hours solid at one game...
Posted by: Bob at January 20, 2008 8:00 AM
@Andrea:
That's not a 'true' RROD defect, it's a known issue with the component cables, where the 360 console flashes a 'mock Red Rings' to indicate that your cables aren't working/connected to the system. When you actually get a RROD, trust me-- you'll know.
Posted by: Terence at January 20, 2008 8:31 AM
>>"They have a team working on making PCs now. "
Yeah, that's something I may not be standing in line for.
Posted by: TheWoozle at January 20, 2008 8:40 AM
He's not saying he came up with the idea for motion control. Just saying he suggested it before it was a success on the Wii.
If the 360 would of been pushed back till it was working properly. That might of pushed it back close to or later then the PS3 and Wii. Which would of been a death sentence for a MS console.
360 owners would be getting screwed one way or the other. It would not of gotten the games it did just for being the only console out. Its console sales figures would of been dead last in the US which would match the rest of the world. Which would mean less developer trust. So less games for the 360 and even harder to sell the next generation console.
At least this time MS is getting screwed in the wallet with all the owners. But people are still playing them and buying games for them.
Posted by: Alt at January 20, 2008 9:03 AM
"Funny thing. In the middle of '03 I tried to convince our director of "innovation" that we needed to do motion control, simple and intuitive controllers, and focus on family oriented and just plain fun content. Well before the Wii came out. He completely disregarded it. Oh well. I bet they wish they had that decision back as a do over."
Funny thing, everybody hates motion control on the PS3 controller, I have yet to see a game that uses it that isn't better with it turned off.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I think putting motion control into a standard gamepad controller is like putting wings on a Cadillac.
Posted by: Krakn3Dfx at January 20, 2008 9:07 AM
I have a launch 360, and have never had a single problem. All my friends have had at least 2. I don;t do anything special, just stand it up, have about half a foot of space either side of it. I just recently bought the hard drive, and I'm hoping that wasn't the problem, as it blocks off quite a bit of cooling space and gets a little hot itself.
Has anyone modded the side of their 360 with a cooling fan? Seems an easy thing to do...
Also, compare the PS3's cooling to the 360's. Insane.
Posted by: Martin Sturrock at January 20, 2008 9:14 AM
I might me missing the point....but what TRUTH about the failures is revealed here ? There are no new facts or any insight.
Some other points that just annoy me :
"It's around 30%, and all will probably fail early."
That leaves 7 in 10 working. Where I'm from, that means it probably WON'T fail.
The other thing that just needs clearing up, is timing. MS understood very well that to stay in the market it had paid so much to join (XBox) it need to be 1st a next generation offering.
It cost a lot to join the market and still more to stay in it - its paying twice over for rushing with the quality problems we see inthe 360.
But be under no illusion -it is happy to pay it. The games industry is already worth more than the movie business in terms of revenues. War of The Worlds sucked in 65 million USD on its first weekend release. Halo 3 did 300 million in its first week and did't have to give 70 million to little tommy cruise for his services.
Posted by: jason at January 20, 2008 9:37 AM
My roommate is on his his 8th 360 in two years, I'm still with my original PS3 from launch. Funny thing is, I still have my original launch PS2 that still works. Poor Microsoft should have gone for the quality... not just the first one out the gate.
Posted by: Beta_v1 at January 20, 2008 10:23 AM
Well..two RROD later and I´ve switched to a PS3 and lovin´every second of it...
Posted by: victor at January 20, 2008 10:24 AM
You know, I really do want a xbox 360. I do. But until I know that I won't have to trouble shoot my console, I won't buy it. Its reprehensible that a company who's focus is on a consumer market is allowed to get away with this. That and when I buy a console, I mod it. Not much interest in the 360 since you have to try so damn hard to get it do the stuff you want to. Until I know that I can come home, Blow stuff up and not have to watch it BLOW up...well, I guess that won't happen. :-p (Oh, and offtopic, but your site doesn't handle firefox zooming. I have bad eye sight and I need large letters. When I zoom it hides the words when it exceeds the text box area.)
Posted by: allaun at January 20, 2008 10:35 AM
"LOL, that was a bit dickish, but he could have well had the idea. Regardless of that statement, this is a very good article and it sounds like it accurately depicts what goes on inside Microsoft. I also like how he included the whole Microsoft taking over everything comment, I could certainly see that happening. Don't worry guys - Microsoft isn't a monopoly."
Right, that's why he said this:
"Xbox's mission statement is to preserve the Windows monopoly and extend it into the living room, (...)"
Posted by: AndyCR at January 20, 2008 1:05 PM
What about the xbox 360 scratching the discs?
http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/Xbox-360-Game-Disc-Scratched.htm or http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/16/scratch-that-the-xbox-360-might-damage-discs-after-all/
Thats the only problem I've had with it so far.
Posted by: Shannon at January 20, 2008 2:42 PM
"if people took the necessary breaks, and let the system cool down, there'd be none of this bullshit rrod problem...
it's the likes of gamers spending 50 hours solid at one game..."
I'm sorry, but that's just plain, unvarnished B.S.
I've treated both of my 360 units like royalty, with plenty of ventilation and air-flow. I'm not a "50-hour" gamer- I play as and when I want, which is usually sparingly.
I suggest you stop jumping to conclusions and just accept the fact that the 360 has some serious hardware faults and that the RROD can occur at anytime with any system. I get the feeling that you haven't had such an occurrence, so maybe you'll bite your tongue when it inevitably does.
Posted by: HellblazerUSA at January 20, 2008 2:44 PM
I've had to send mine in 9 times. Only had 1 RROD and the rest were sticky DVD trays. Hands up whos buying MS next console @ launch????
Posted by: Clackers at January 20, 2008 3:16 PM
Lots of people were playing with motion sensing way before the Wii. I worked on three separate projects at University what pre-dated the tech we now have in the games industry, one of them was using machine vision that pre-dated Sony's eye-toy, the other two used motion and pressure sensors for interactivity.
Hate to burst your little Nintendo love-bubble, but most of what you see in consumer-level technologies is already decades old.
Posted by: Cameron at January 20, 2008 3:23 PM
XBox 360 Lot#0735, Team FDOU, MFR Date 8/31/07. I purchased it 11/07. The first month I played my XBox it would occasionally lock up. Since then it has been running fine.
Posted by: Rudy at January 20, 2008 3:49 PM
It appears that Microsoft treats hardware like their software -- Put it out as soon as possible and patch it later (Xbox 360 SP3 should be out shortly).
Unfortunately, buggy software is easier to fix than buggy hardware. Four of my Xbox 360 friends have had to repair or replace their original 360 units and all now have PS3 units.
Also, two of my friends bought Zune units and call them crappy versions of iPods. They think MS should stick to faulty software and get out of the faulty hardware business.
Posted by: Pete ![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.8bitjoystick.com/nav-commenters.gif)
at January 20, 2008 3:51 PM
I have a launch unit, works fine. Except some discs will display as if they were put into a stand alone dvd player. And sometimes I hear this odd, grinding? sound from the disc drive itself. But it works and doesn't scratch the disk. But no one seems to remember PS2's did this as well. I think it was a drive issue for them. but my buddy burned through 3 ps2's during the course of that systems life.
Posted by: milsoRgen at January 20, 2008 5:22 PM
I think the problem is that the xbox over heats and the solder heats up and the connections become loose. i would recommend keeping a small fan next to the xbox so i wont get hot
Posted by: Mike B at January 20, 2008 6:01 PM
Pretty insightful article, but i won't take his last answer about Wii seriously, like so many idiots on the forum did.
As someone who used to work for one of CM for the xbox 360 accessories, I can attest that the answers fit most of my undertandings of the so-called Microsoft Culture, and it also explain a lot of nagging questions i used to have while dealing with the Microsoft team on their decision and behavior. So thanks.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2008 6:44 PM
Pretty insightful article, but i won't take his last answer about Wii seriously, like so many idiots on the forum did.
As someone who used to work for one of CM for the xbox 360 accessories, I can attest that the answers fit most of my undertandings of the so-called Microsoft Culture, and it also explain a lot of nagging questions i used to have while dealing with the Microsoft team on their decision and behavior. So thanks.
Posted by: lucifer at January 20, 2008 6:45 PM
Ha, I sent my XB360 in on 12/2 for the RRoD. I got it back 12/18, played for 30 minutes and it died. Re-sent it in and I'm STILL waiting for the replacement... I had to buy another before Christmas so that my kids could actually USE their Christmas gifts... this is totally ridiculous.
Posted by: jaybertx at January 20, 2008 6:57 PM
"if people took the necessary breaks, and let the system cool down, there'd be none of this bullshit rrod problem...
it's the likes of gamers spending 50 hours solid at one game..."
actually i wouldn't be surprised if the repeated heating up and cooling down of the console is more damaging to the solder joints than just letting it stay on for a few more hours of gaming.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2008 7:03 PM
I owned multiple playstations because of disc read errors; its not limited to Microsoft. Its because these optical media based consoles are no more designed for playing videogames than first generation Discman players. The more fragile crap they throw in it as so many mention here, it gets worse every generation. Can you imagine the physical tax of streaming a game like GTA the whole time of play? Our Sega Saturns and NeoGeo's will probably outlive our ps4's and xbox 1080's.
Posted by: Back2Carts at January 20, 2008 8:56 PM
MS cannot and should not be trusted.
5 points about Me....
Microsoft, Guilty No.5 possibly No.4
No.1 "I don't support Slave labor"
No.2 "I don't support Theft"
No.3 "I don't support Abuse"
No.4 "I don't support Corruption"
No.5 "I don't support Knowingly pushing Flawed hardware in to a market, Screwing your customers to obtain a monopoly over the involved industries, while never providing the services/hardware promised"
I condone None of the above, and would not knowingly support a company which partakes in either/or.
Posted by: LogicPTK at January 20, 2008 9:07 PM
i'm typing this on my wii. <3 xox
i like my old xbox but only plays like 10 of my 78 titles. so not getting a 360. but at least it still plays morrowind.
motion sensing may have not been new, but wii did it RIGHT.
(also makes a kick ass mouse for online.)
Posted by: rayne at January 20, 2008 10:19 PM
As for the comment about the Wii and thinking of this before hand...
There's MANY people that have thought about this kind of design. Even just the regular joe gamer, but it takes a big company backing the idea to make it happen. Who ever at Nintendo decided that idea was a good one gets the credit, but they aren't the only one to ever think of this idea. Just the first one to have a multi-million dollar company behind the idea.
Posted by: Anonymous at January 20, 2008 10:20 PM
"Is keeping the 360 horizontal more safe than keeping it vertical?
I don't think so. Vertical exposes more surface area and volume to heat exchange with cooler room air. And I think opens more vent holes. Just don't let it fall over."
Keeping the 360 vertical is not smart. The vent's on the bottom of the 360 are larger and allow more heat to escape than the 4 smaller vent's on the "side" of the unit if you keep it vertical.
Posted by: Steve at January 21, 2008 1:07 AM
I my self have a unique 360. The RROD has displayed at least 4 times now and mine still works. Well sort of, now it wont read discs. I got mine at launch.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2224/2208289363_34e6646ce7.jpg
Some are complaing about the Zune here, I love mine. I am very hard on PMPs. I broke my first iPod in a matter of hours. My Creative zens lasted a few weeks. I'm on my fifth month now with my Zune and nothing is wrong with it(aside from the most recent firmware updates...)
Posted by: teh omni at January 21, 2008 1:15 AM
Sorry Jake, I think you are being fooled. Why?
1) Falco has been out for less than 4 months, and your source states that it's failure is higher than Xenon's was after 4 months.
2) Your source asserts that he not only thought of the Wii-mote, but that he advocated Nintendos entire business plan to his boss at MS 3 years before Wii launched.
3) In an attempt to validate his "I invented Wii" claim, your source at MS identifies himself by revealing details of confidential meetings he had with the director of innovation. Not very smart, is he?
Posted by: Ron Howard at January 21, 2008 9:39 AM
This guy knows what he is talking about. I work in electronics manufacturing and everything he says shows he does do. He is thoroughly knowledgable on the subject and knows things only people in that industry would know. He didn't put a foot wrong.
That doesn't mean he works for MS but there you go! Personally I believe him for sure.
Posted by: Jimbo at January 21, 2008 10:26 AM
"...you didn't mention Ed Fries, who left in 04. I heard he landed at Sony, but can't verify."
One verification:
Posted by: Anonymous at January 21, 2008 3:17 PM
Next time you talk to your source, could you ask him about the grinding noises i hear from my disk drive? I dont know if this is a problem or not, but its been doing it for a few months now. It hasnt ruined any of my games yet but id like to know if i should send it in if this is early signs of a major issue.
thanks.
Posted by: LSF22 at January 21, 2008 7:02 PM
My brother had an Xbox 360 with a faulty DVD drive. So I bought him a new box for his birthday. I asked him for the old box. I called MS and said "how much to get this box fixed?" and explained everything honestly to them, including that it was out of warranty and did not have a RROD error.
They sent me a box for return shipping. In a few weeks I had a brand new unit back, no bill, just a replacement. The unit had a manufacture date of just three weeks before. Wow! I got a new Xbox 360 for free and I was willing to pay to have it fixed.
I waited about a month before I actually turned the thing on. In about 30 minutes it RROD'd. So I called Xbox support. Oddly enough, they had me remove the hard drive and boot it again. It worked. So they had me plug the hard drive back in. It worked, and has been working ever since (months now). Weird and bizarre. How does removing the HD "fix" it?
Yes, it was hot that day, and yes, I did buy a vertical fan to help cool it after that happened. The air blows out cool (from the top of the Xbox), even after heavy gaming.
Yes, MS would never had a chance in the market had they waited. The PS3 is far too good for that to happen. I happen to have a PS3 too, by the way. I bought it a couple weeks ago. Many of the game companies would have defected to the PS3, only because it would be the only "next-gen" console to develop for. The WII doesn't count. It's over-clocked "old-gen" with a fancy controller.
Sure releasing a bad piece of hardware was slimy, sleazy, and just plain morally wrong. However, as bad as that is, for MS it was a wise business decision, considering the alternative. You're playing on that piece of crap, and you probably are paying $50 a year for an Xbox Live subscription too. Yep, MS has your number.
Posted by: SuperSparky at January 21, 2008 9:57 PM
My launch XBOX was replaced recently after it failed the 2nd time. It run a about a year since purchase so i consider myself lucky one.
The first time it broke, the replaced the parts inside, shipped it back to me. Two weeks later it wend dead. When i called the 2nd failure in on the hotline and told'em the error message from the screen, MS said it seems like it was an all systems failure.
The unit was replaced for a new one. Had it now for 3 weeks, it locked up once already.
Posted by: anon at January 22, 2008 1:02 AM
My 360 just died. Luckily, I bought it from Costco and return. Looking to upgrade to the Elite and was going to get from Best Buy with the warranty where you can walk in and get a brand new one if your's breaks. The only problem is that Best Buy and everyone else is sold out of XBOX's except for the Arcade model. Any idea of why and when I can get a new one?
Posted by: Geoff at January 22, 2008 7:12 AM
To all the people out there, complaining about the Xbox 360. I have at the mo a 360 elite, PS3, WII.
Guess which one gets played the most....That's right the 360.
I have found the PS3 has the following Probs.
1: The hand control is to light without the rumble.
2: The box is to big and weights more than the 360.
3: I played 2 player ( Split Screen ), Need for speed pro and god was it jerkey, slow and hard to play.
I think the 360 is a great machine and has a better joypad.
I am on thrid 360 NONE have RROD I have traded two of thwm in.
One for a PS3 at launch and the second for the elite.
Yes MS f*** up the hardware and some people have had more than one failure, but the machine is just a pure games machine and not the center of your life.
Posted by: Forresttc at January 22, 2008 7:33 AM
My box was manufactured on Oct.9,2007. Would it have the xenon or falcon chip in it??
Thanks
Posted by: Gavin at January 22, 2008 7:38 AM
I got a 360 Elite and it took a dump tray wont close and even if you hold it close it wont read the disc. I was wondering if it was true about the elite also are they included in the group of consoles you mentioned or is it something different?
Posted by: ludnut at January 22, 2008 8:11 AM
I'm on my 4th 360. got my first on the launch day, it lastest a year and a month (just enough time for the warranty to run out, costing me $150 to fix it, although, that was recouped many months later after the refunds came) then my 2nd one lasted about a week. My third lasted literally and hour, and my 4th one has been fine for the most part for over a year now. They even had a guy phoning me from MS almost daily telling me where my machine was, when it was being shipped, etc... because I had sent so many back.
I will give MS credit, they have a good tech support dept, never gave me much of a hassle (except when explaining to me that I had to pay $150 to fix my year-and-a-month old 360)but the machine is kinda balls. I like my PS3
Posted by: bdub at January 22, 2008 9:33 AM
haha thought of motion controllers 5 years ago, it's been around since gun controllers were around....i had the idea of basing normal controllers as motion controllers since the days of genesis and snes. Anyways, people who bash MS for having a faulty system have no reason to...MS knew about it and you can't blame them for rushing the system seriously as much as i bash sony and nintendo it indeed is tough competition, nintendo is usually always innovative with what they do and sony has always been the backbone of all sports game fans which is a very popular genre. MS makes enough money to cover their mistakes as well though so by them extending the warrenty is merely pocket change. Also the fact that microsoft is getting games that were originally exclusives to sony really says something about who devs are choosing. btw i've had my 360 since q1 '06 and only had 1 rrod i think people might be over exagerrating on their consoles a bit too
Posted by: ryan at January 22, 2008 10:32 AM
Hmm motion control in games... lets see:
Sega's Samba De Amigo
Konami's MO-Cap series
- Boxing
- 911
Namco's Sword Game (Mazan i think it's called)
Probably more...
All appeared way before Wii, so yeah (he probably wouldn't know this since he doesnt play games... but since i do, i'll spread the knowledge)...
Anyway, Read "Opening The X-Box", and this stuff will seem tame...
Posted by: 60Hertz at January 22, 2008 10:39 AM
My 360 lasted a little over a year as well. Crazy thing is that I really didn't use it all that much. I even unplugged it for extended periods of time since I didn't want it just sitting there drawing power.
Sending it back wasn't that hard and I got my replacement in 5 days... I wasn't too happy though because first off, the case on the unit I got back was really dirty, covered in black finger prints and smudges, easily fixed of course but annoying...
What really pissed me off though was that the drive tray on the unit I got back wouldn't close from the moment I unboxed it. They actually sent me back a defective unit. I haven't sent the replacement back yet because it sometimes works, but I just know that it's gonna fail eventually.
Posted by: akantor at January 22, 2008 10:49 AM
"i think people might be over exagerrating on their consoles a bit too"
I don't think you can exaggerate 2 dead consoles in one year- one within less than four months. And I think my story is one of the more conservative ones out there...
Posted by: Anonymous at January 22, 2008 12:22 PM
"After i read the thing about the Wii, where he allegedly thought of it first, i totally disregarded this whole article. Sorry.
Posted by: Arty at January 19, 2008 4:56 PM"
Then you're an idiot. A lot of people thought about motion sensing long before Nintendo. Nintendo didn't even design the prototype; they hired someone else to do it (the same company that is now working with MS for their version). Hell, MICROSOFT THEMSELVES produced a motion-sensitive controller for PC gaming back in the 90's. Nintendo did it with the Power Glove even earlier than that.
Family oriented is a no-brainer. Sony has been milking E for Everyone for over two generations now but could never get the party aspect right. Nintendo couldn't even get it right until GameCube.
Sorry.
Posted by: jps at January 22, 2008 1:01 PM
Just got my replacement back today, opened the box, powered it up. Soon as it fired up and I got my tv on and began setting up resolution....you guessed it, it ringed out. Should have known that when the UPS guy told me they are seeing 20 of the boxes come in a day....f'n microsoft. I'm canceling my xbox live, and never buying microsoft again. Wish I could sue em I am so mad. Should have stuck with my roots and stayed Sony.
Posted by: jeep23 at January 22, 2008 5:54 PM
Ha. When PONG came out my brothers would often jerk the controllers around, but not me. I knew better. And yet, on occasion, we would muse on how cool it might be if that were one of the ways of controlling the images on the screen.
I guess that shows how old I am, eh? If we were doing it, I'm sure other people were too.
BTW, that was in the '70s...
:(
Posted by: Kraktor at January 22, 2008 6:21 PM
I had mine since Christmas 2006 and it is working fine to this day. I just need some games like Burnout Paradise and others.
Posted by: Daniel at January 22, 2008 6:40 PM
ah, Jake, he said he thought of "motion control, simple and intuitive controllers" and didn't say "I invented the Wii."
the most useful info in the article is probably the bit about MS' strategy with the 360, specifically, that it's more a battlefield toward OS monopoly than an aggressive business on its own.
Posted by: physivic at January 22, 2008 7:19 PM
I work at gamestop and can confirm that 360s die constantly.
I've been through 4 myself...
at the end of the day though... i have to tell people to buy 360 instead of ps3 because 360 just has more fun games to play. usually people do not have to spend money when their 360 breaks... they have to spend time which is sad, but i'd still rather go through the effort and enjoy better games than write letters about the great reliability of my ps3 while sitting at home wish i could play mass effect, halo 3, beautiful katamari, etc.
p.s. i do understand that MS bent us all over here... i guess my point is that it is hard to complain about being bent over because 360 owners are at least playing fun games on xbox live; an experience you cannot have on ps3.
Posted by: Matt at January 22, 2008 8:15 PM
I'm pretty sure he wasn't the first person who thought of a motion sensing controller. So no reason to disregard that article based on that account.
Secondly I just want to say thanks for exposing the truth out there. Microsoft needs to be punished for Fraud heavily. It should be forced to recall all of the Xbox 360's and ship out new one's that have no failure rates past 4%.
There are laws that protect people against these kinds of things and they were clearly broken. F U Micro$oft.
Posted by: CT at January 22, 2008 11:21 PM
I'm merely scanning this article, but does the inside source have thoughts on the absurdly loud fan noise?
Seriously mine is so loud, since I play in close proximity to it that I can't relax with a game like Bejeweled 2 but have to play racing sim games to mask the noise...
Are they all loud or ar refurbs worse>
Posted by: TD at January 23, 2008 7:43 AM
We own 2 360s, the Elite has so far been ok (Euro one, bought a few weeks after release). The Premium (initially a launch unit) failed twice. The second time I took it apart and fixed it (tightened the GPU heatsink clamps ;) ) and it lasted a while longer. Of course it died again eventually, so I bought a new Premium as I'd broken the seals on the old one. The first one had broken cooling fans out of the box, second one had a DVD drive that made screaming grating sounds, both of those were replaced by the retailer. Third one they gave me worked until just before Christmas before going RROD on us. All three of these units were obtained in mid 2007, they all had mid-early 2006 manufacturing dates. Old stock, probably a result of channel dumping at the start.
I count the days until the next failure.
Posted by: Sume Euro Dude at January 23, 2008 10:25 AM
I got through 7 360s in just over 6 months. Do I win a prize?
Posted by: Jocklous Brown at January 23, 2008 2:14 PM
** PLEASE READ **
Microsoft = P.O.S
My 360 got the RROD in December, it was gone for about two weeks, I then receive a "replacement" I set everything up, excited to play, then five minutes in the system freezes. I'm like okay, fluke won't happen again, haa, your sure as hell it happened again, to every one of my games and DVDs. I called and they are unable to create a new repair order, I'm so freaking frustrated. I was supposed to get a call from a supervisor, I'm still waiting. Sorry, just had to vent . . .
Posted by: Cali Ed at January 23, 2008 2:52 PM
got a 360 had problems,yata yata yata. still fun to play.
Posted by: sage360 at January 23, 2008 9:30 PM
O.L.P.360 here (orig launch premium), no issues.
Just read the lastest "Fortune" magazine with Melinda Gates on the cover, & though rarely a day goes by I don't curse M$ from sheer frustration (I'm in I.T. solutions/consulting), the ONE shining factor that means more than any of the B$ we put up with is this:
Micro$oft's main man--the one we love to hate--puts our *entertainment* monies back into things that really matter; cancer research, medical, mental, future, historic, foreign, domestic, etc etc etc...to the tune of over THIRTY THOUSAND MILLION DOLLARS.
I don't care what may come of the xbox;
I don't care why they frustrate consumers to no end;
At the end of the day, I take solace in knowing a portion of my fun money ends up helping one of the world's most generous philanthropists, bastage that he/M$ may be. ;o)
Posted by: UrbanLAN at January 24, 2008 1:09 AM
The article is a question of business ethics. It doesn't matter if MS ponied up for a three year warranty after the fact. The thing is that they intentionally brought and sold a faulty product to the market without telling the consumer that it was faulty. This is honesty scary territory when we have many people in this thread turning the story around on Sony and absolving MS of any wrongdoing based on the PS3's higher price, and then getting rated up for it. The PS3 had a higher price BECAUSE it didn't opt for cheap heatsinks or a last-gen disc drive. Blu-ray isn't just for movies. Anyone who has compared the noise levels of both consoles has noticed the remarkable noise and heat created by the fast-spinning DVD drive on the 360. Blu-ray with it's higher density doesn't have to spin anywhere near as fast, thus it is much quieter while gaming. You want to fault Sony for those decisions? I think it was a great one. I love the lower noise levels and reliability of the PS3. Am I a freaking lunatic or something? There's nothing ethically repulsive about higher prices for higher quality hardware. Just because you didn't know, couldn't wait, or couldn't afford it doesn't make Sony just as bad in this instance. But I tell you what, as soon as the consumer shows a willingness and forgiveness for this kind of activity, it only invites more of it in the future, and forces competition to do the same in order to compete. When Sony screwed up with the rootkit, people revolted against it, including me, and they stopped. When MS lies and sells faulty hardware, its fans play it down, equate it to high prices, and rationalize it as a necessary evil to get more sales and steal away developers? I don't get it.
People who bought a 360 need to ask themselves if they would have bought a 360 if MS had not concealed this information before launch. And most of the people who are using the "end justifies the means" argument are people who bought and own the system. Of course they will turn a blind eye to this. This is the craziest new business tactic in the history of gaming. Release a system a year earlier, conceal defects, gain a userbase and loyal following inherently opposed to the competition and who convinces friends to buy one too in order to play online with them, and then pay out billions in warranties and admit what you did... to no effect. If consumers accept this, then it will effectively change the way consoles are made and sold. Everything will now be rushed no matter what in order to secure the userbase first, knowing that people will accept mass hardware problems and loud drives out of blind loyalty to what they have already purchased.
Posted by: Filster at January 24, 2008 10:14 AM
The article states that environmental conditions affect the 360. Where do you live, a hot humid cave?
"I got through 7 360s in just over 6 months. Do I win a prize?
Posted by: Jocklous Brown at January 23, 2008 2:14 PM"
Posted by: Paul at January 24, 2008 3:09 PM
Does it have to do with going onlne
Posted by: activeSlayerX7 at January 25, 2008 5:24 AM
Well I will be on my 3rd 360 when the replacement comes. I can honestly say that I am fed up with Microsoft. Not only have I had the RROD. I have had problems with my 360 actually cracking the games,not scratching, actually cracking the games. This has happened to me with two games. I am having those replaced as well. My first 360 died after a wk of play. Then my replacement lasted a yr and a month.
I think stability is an important factor to take into consideration when choosing a next gen system. Its true that the 360 has great games and a superb at times online service however, the ever haunting "Will I have RROD today" spirit still resides over my shoulders. I should be able to play games and not worry about the system dying. Is it worth it to have games and never get to play them because of a crappy rushed system? Im about to become an Anti-Micro head. Believe me theres so much more problems that I have had with the 360 and xbox live as well. I have no room to type it here but for those who are interested in know ingplease let me know.
Posted by: rasheen at January 26, 2008 6:45 PM
I posted earlier about the problem everyone is having and i may have found a way to fix the problem. I dont know how full proof it is but it has worked for me since it started the watercolor effect.
I dont have the extended warranty on my Xbox 360, so if I was to send it in it would cost me $99. Im strapped for cash at the moment, so i brainstormed and found a solution to this problem. I would manually overheat my Xbox 360. Stupid? Yes. But it worked. I wanted to overheat my 360 so i could send it for free since it would have the RRoD. I taped a piece of paper a piece of plain white computer paper over the vents in the back. Put in a game that i rarely played and let it run for about 10 mins. While doing so, i played my original Xbox on a different output and waited until i thought the time was up. Flipping back over to my component input i noticed that it actually had a screen as displaying perfectly. No lines through my screen or anything. I took off the piece of paper and was able to play 2 or 3 matches of COD4.
Later that night, it started to do the watercolor effect again but i was still able to play. Earlier the screen was completely black and i wasnt getting any audio from it. So i let it sit overnight and tried to play the next morning. It worked again for maybe 10 mins before it went to watercolor.
Side note: If you look at pictures of my setup you can see that i have a glass window that contains my Audio system and Xbox 360. I usually leave the door open when im playing my 360 so it will get enough air flow. Ever since i started this little expirement i kept doing that, until today when i finally just closed it thinking that "if it overheats, oh well...if it doesnt...oh well!" On the first match of COD4 it did the watercolor effect but it only for maybe 2 mins. Then it went back to normal. I played another 4 matches and 1 game of NCAA Football 08 for a total gameplay time of maybe 2 hours.
So, my theory is this. Whatever is causing the video problem on the inside reacts to heat. When i tried to overheat the console it began to work again. When i closed the compartment door on my 360 it worked fine again. I dont know how true this is, but i figure im in a win/win situation here. If it doesnt overheat then fine, if it does, well i'll send it in for free. I havent voided the warranty on anything since i never took apart the actual 360. You can try this at your own risk, but closely monitor your Xbox 360 while doing so.
I'm going to keep doing what i normally do and see what happens.
Can your clarify what exactly is wrong with the Xbox 360 video problem and how my solution to the problem actually worked?
Posted by: Brad at January 26, 2008 8:23 PM
As it turns out i know two managers of computer game shops, both say they get around 10% - 15% of XBox 360s sold back within 3 months and around a third back within 12 months.
Personally I am on my fourth which has just started crashing during gameplay again, sigh, whereas someone else I know is still using their second in the same time.
I my opinion XBox 360s are not fit for purpose and should never have been brought to market.
Posted by: Tris at January 27, 2008 2:56 PM
Interesting interview! Would explain why i,m about to return my 8th xbox back to microsoft. Im possibly one of there most unhappy customers. I receieved this console on tuesday last week 5 days later broken down again. Cannot beleive they are albe to get away with this. Cheeky bas*ads!
Posted by: SkunkDoctor at January 28, 2008 5:50 AM
You ever heard of the famous BSOD. YEs the BLUE SCREEN OF DEATH. Micosoft's glith in 1995. Now RROD in 2005, haha. what happened, the original xbox was built so well!! M$ trying to compete with sony, PLEASE... they should had just continued their research, they're on the right track with Direct X 10(aka Direct X Box) The company
It really pays to do your research before investing several hundred dollars on a gaming unit! When you invest all your cash on their games and xbox live, you are committed to your product like you are to your wife. just walk away and lose your invest, yeah right?! haha
Look at Atari, i have one sitting on the top shelve of my closet. guess what, its still kickin' since the day i got it 25 years ago. people may act like its just a simple board. Let me tell you, when it was invented it wasn't simple. These guys ran tests for at least a year before launching the Atari system. The quality has allowed it to last for a life time, thats impressive!!!
NOw we live in a new era, of cutting technology that doesn't even have to go through a full beta test before launch. The product only last one year with a very low standards of 7/10 sucess rate. I would not place $399 on an basic xbox 360 thats %70 sucessful to outlast its 1 year warranty. Ever hear, you get what you pay for? Sure games are $59.99, but what good are they if M$ has your investment sitting on a test bench for a month, and a high school graduate employee that really only gets 10 minutes to solve the issue because for every ONE shipped back another THREE xb 360 are stacked on the repair pile. can you say distaster.. luckily my best friend hasn't had an issues. However, I'm starting to caught an issue with M$ myself. Windows Vista is the only OS that will support DX10. They continue to screw us over, now my $2,500 pc hardware investment is crap because none of it is DX 10 complainant.
Posted by: Armani Di Classe at January 28, 2008 9:36 AM
I remember the days when you could buy a console and not worry about it still working the next time you power it up.
I have my genesis and sega cd (both from north american launch day) that work without a hitch. SNES , just about a year after launch. Two Atari ST, one from launch (green monochrome monitor) and one with a huge 100mb hard drive, color monitor, somewhat working modem, and the happy jack box for external hard drives
Posted by: p00n4ny xD at January 30, 2008 3:00 PM
I went to my friends house last week to try out the 360. I have a Wii and really do like it, but wanted shooter games. Sat down controller in hand and oppps it broke right there. That did it for me. I don't understand why everyone spends so much on something that may break. Would you go to a concert and spend 400$ on a ticket if you only had a 70% chance to get into the show?
Posted by: smas at January 31, 2008 12:16 PM
Quote "Just because you didn't know, couldn't wait, or couldn't afford it doesn't make Sony just as bad in this instance." Originally posted by Filster. There is a lot of us that can not afford a £365 system. I've had a lot of friends that bought this system Christmas time and have had to buy new systems because the disc drives. Microsoft did put faulty Hardware on the Market, maybe because they felt intimidated that they would lose to Sony's Playstation 3. What you have to remember is that no matter what hardware it is, there's a chance of it failing. I've had to re-solder parts of my pc because I've had faulty connections or bad wiring. I've taken apart TV's because they have stopped working. It is disgusting that Microsoft put faulty hardware on the market, knowing that people would fall for it and pay anyway. I think that Microsoft have cleverly planned this development out. It lasts for average a year, and then fails with the RRoL which they are dropping the warranty for pretty soon. In this day and age, it's all about what companies making the hardware with the best graphics or what games are coming out for that console. No one actually thinks about the quality of the hardware. A next gen console should live until the future gen is released, encouraging you to buy the next gen. I've had an Xbox 360 for just gone a year, I've had just got RRoL and funnily enough, it was after my 12 month warranty ran out. I'm not going to send it back to M$ and pay them. I would much rather buy a whole new system with a longer warranty so I can burn in to their wallets and take more money from them. Sony make good quality products but they are more expensive than what people are looking for and they purposely short-stock just to make sure that people will become needy and they will get a good rep.
Posted by: Kyle at February 2, 2008 2:49 PM
I had mine for about a year and a half before it finally flashed the 3 rings. I just had someone replace the thermal paste and add 2 micro Heat sink chip, big size Heat sink for southhip,north chip for less heat, added thermal pad RAM under GPU, 3 FAN 12volts internal (1 fan getting coldair from the outside, 2 fans attached to the heatsink with a shroud that will allow air to flow towards the heatsinks and out) and an external fan.
The unit is running perfectly and I use this console 6 hours at a time. Hope it does not break though.
Note: Repair was DIY so warranty will be voided but i'm guessing this will do the trick and solve the problem. Only time will tell! =)
Posted by: ciscoman at February 7, 2008 2:13 PM
I hope he sent that from his personal e-mail account, as you know MS is looking through the logs now...
Very good read BTW.
Thanks
Posted by: Onza at February 21, 2008 8:30 AM
PLEASE READ
Hi there, i am from peru, in lima an xbox 360 is really expensive, so I thought I could buy one here, I have the money but I have read over 25 webpages in which xbox techincal problems are explained, I just don't know what to do, to buy one or not. I dont think that if I got a RROD I would be able to ship it back to microsoft from Lima. Should I buy one?
Thanks.
Posted by: mr.game at February 24, 2008 10:54 AM
I would still get an Xbox 360. Plus they are more reliable than before.
Posted by: Jake of 8bitjoystick.com at February 25, 2008 12:40 AM
This article is too true =)
i have a sega MD 2 that's almost as old as i am, and still is perfectly reliable (after TWICE spilling coke all over it).
I think console developers should also think about WHO will be using it. Nintendo did this because the NES-SNES-N64 are bullet-proof castle wall bricks, and where mainly targeted at the kids.
Posted by: SADASS at March 6, 2008 4:06 AM
My 3rd replacement 360 is now retired to perform infrequent media center extender duties. PS3 is my new gamer platform and plays blu ray too. It also has nice dlna features so the 360's days are numbered as an extender.
Word up guys - The 360 is dead. MS needs to get the "720" sorted out whilst they watch their market share disappear fast during 2008.
Posted by: livers at March 23, 2008 6:29 AM
I didn't experience a RROD but after buying the Elite in December of 07 the console failed to read any disk in the drive. It didn't say any disk error I would just spin for 2 seconds and give up. This was after less then 3 months too! I tried a lens cleaner and that didn't work. So I gave up and went to PS3 yesterday. Just sucks because I had a lot of good games for it like Forza 2 and Flatout UC. But hay GT5 is coming this fall so not to disappointed lol.
Posted by: JRRacing64 at March 28, 2008 6:52 AM
I got a launch 360, and got the red ring just a couple days ago. Im amazed it lasted that long. sent it away yesterday. let's see how the replacement does.
Posted by: rx4newmedicines at April 11, 2008 2:58 AM
So, to add to everything else, MS is now shipping out replacement premium 360's (for boxes sent in for repair) with new MFR DATES that are 'NOT' NEW.
The box I just received (replacement #3) has a MFR DATE of 2008-02-23 but does not have an HDMI port, and it definitely has a REFURB MB inside (looks like a Zephyr with the old CPU heatsink and the additional extra GPU heatsink beside it). Absolutely NOT a Falcon MB despite the new MFR DATE. The DVD is a Hitachi, and with the horrible sounds it makes when inserting a disc, I can't believe it passed any kind of quality control testing! (or ANY testing at all)
On the down side, I expect that a return of the RROD is just a matter of time. On the up side, I now have a 1 year repair warranty (compared to the previous 3 month), so I guess its kind of like I do have a new 360 except without the improved reliability that the Falcon provides (presumably - LOL).
Posted by: Fuzzy Hamster at April 11, 2008 9:51 AM
I'm never getting a 360 for anything but ebay...
Posted by: Anonymous at April 28, 2008 2:50 PM
